Tag for ReplayGain

[ https://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?27967-Tag-for-ReplayGain&p=128607 ]


12-20-2012, 11:07 PM #1

donstrack

Over the years, my music files have resided on four different computers (Mac and PC), and the MP3 tags are pretty messed up, especially the ReplayGain tag. I'm trying to clear the tag, and have been successful by using MP3Tag, with a custom column and tag panel entry for %REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN%, and its associated PEAK and ALBUM/GAIN, ALBUM/PEAK tags.

But after clearing the tags in MP3Tag, a check with dBpoweramp still shows a value in "replaygain_track_gain". Why is it that dBpoweramp sees the data, but MP3Tag does not?

--DS


12-21-2012, 04:18 AM #2

Spoon

mp3 can embed this value into the mp3 stream, it is not an editable tag.

Spoon
www.dbpoweramp.com


12-21-2012, 08:46 AM #3

donstrack

Originally Posted by Spoon

>> mp3 can embed this value into the mp3 stream, it is not an editable tag. <<

A bit more research finds that Mediamonkey (which I uninstalled) stored the "replaygain_track_gain" (volume leveling) data in a generic TXXX tag. But MP3Tag does not see the TXXX tag. I assume dBpoweramp is reading that TXXX tag (TXXX="replaygain_track_gain 2.20 dB") and displaying the value. If the data was in the standard %REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN% tag, then MP3tag would see it.

Yet another reason for software to use standardized tags, instead of reading a file's metadata, and twiddling the data to make it user friendly ("Oh, this is what you really mean."), or to keep you using their software due to "user-defined" TXXX tags.

It appears that the only way to remove this non-standard ReplayGain data is to use dBpoweramp on each folder's files, but I have over 1,000 folders <sigh>. At least I'll only have to do it once (I hope).

--DS


12-21-2012, 11:39 AM #4

garym

Originally Posted by donstrack

>> A bit more research finds that Mediamonkey (which I uninstalled) stored the "replaygain_track_gain" (volume leveling) data in a generic TXXX tag. But MP3Tag does not see the TXXX tag. I assume dBpoweramp is reading that TXXX tag (TXXX="replaygain_track_gain 2.20 dB") and displaying the value. If the data was in the standard %REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN% tag, then MP3tag would see it. <<

>> Yet another reason for software to use standardized tags, instead of reading a file's metadata, and twiddling the data to make it user friendly ("Oh, this is what you really mean."), or to keep you using their software due to "user-defined" TXXX tags. <<

>> It appears that the only way to remove this non-standard ReplayGain data is to use dBpoweramp on each folder's files, but I have over 1,000 folders <sigh>. At least I'll only have to do it once (I hope). <<

re: mp3tag not seeing the tag, I assume you've right clicked on the files and selected EXTENDED TAGS and the stay tag field does NOT show up there? If it does, you can do a batch delete from that popup screen.


12-21-2012, 06:38 PM #5

donstrack

Originally Posted by garym

>> re: mp3tag not seeing the tag, I assume you've right clicked on the files and selected EXTENDED TAGS and the stay tag field does NOT show up there? If it does, you can do a batch delete from that popup screen. <<

Yes. MP3 does *not* see the so-called "replaygain_track_gain" tag that I see by using dBpoweramp, either in normal view, or by using the Extended Tags view. But it's in there someplace, since it keeps coming back after I "Remove" it in dBpoweramp. I suspect it's something Mediamonkey added from its "Volume Leveling" helpfulness.

Maybe I could use a hex editor like Notepad++ to see if maybe I can edit it that way. I don't mind having a ReplayGain tag and value set, it's just that some of mine are set at +15dB, or -15dB. I want to clear them all and use something like a foobar2000 ReplayGain script or plug-in to reset them.

On the MP3Tag forum, someone suggested selecting the files, then remove (red-x) all the tags, then undo the "remove" action. Apparently, MP3Tag will only add back the tags it supports.

I sure wish there was a way to view a tagged MP3 file and see all the tags, as they really are. How about something like "view tags" for normal use, then a "view advanced tags" for all full list of supported ID3 tags, and a "view really advanced tags" for a full list of all tags in the file. Any editing would be confirmed by a "Do you really, really want to edit this" dialogue box.

--DS


12-21-2012, 06:58 PM #6

garym

Originally Posted by donstrack

>> I sure wish there was a way to view a tagged MP3 file and see all the tags, as they really are. How about something like "view tags" for normal use, then a "view advanced tags" for all full list of supported ID3 tags, and a "view really advanced tags" for a full list of all tags in the file. Any editing would be confirmed by a "Do you really, really want to edit this" dialogue box. <<

agree


12-21-2012, 07:00 PM #7

garym

what happens if you rescan these for RG tags with foobar2000 or dbpa? Does it write new (correct) tags. And perhaps those tags are used by RG compliant players and the rogue tags are ignored?

Reply With Quote


12-21-2012, 07:41 PM #8

donstrack

Originally Posted by garym

>> what happens if you rescan these for RG tags with foobar2000 or dbpa? Does it write new (correct) tags. And perhaps those tags are used by RG compliant players and the rogue tags are ignored? <<

Rescan with dBpoweramp (dbpa)? Have I missed something? All I see is "Convert To" or "Edit ID-Tag".

If you mean the %REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN% tag, then yes, nothing shows in foobar or in MP3Tag. Whatever dbpa is seeing, is likely in a TXXX user-defined tag added by Mediamonkey.

--DS


12-22-2012, 05:13 AM #9

garym

Originally Posted by donstrack

>> Rescan with dBpoweramp (dbpa)? Have I missed something? All I see is "Convert To" or "Edit ID-Tag". <<

>> If you mean the %REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN% tag, then yes, nothing shows in foobar or in MP3Tag. Whatever dbpa is seeing, is likely in a TXXX user-defined tag added by Mediamonkey. <<

Use convert to but then convert to RG DSP. this just adds RG tags.


12-22-2012, 08:01 AM #10

donstrack

Originally Posted by garym

>> Use convert to but then convert to RG DSP. this just adds RG tags. <<

Converting with RG DSP added "regain_track_peak", which shows in dBpoweramp. But there still is not a tag that I can see.

I found a file viewer (FileTagSleuth) that at least shows "replaygain_track_gain" as a user-defined tag, but after converting, it does not show "replaygain_track_peak".

I guess I really need some help with MP3Tag to show these tags.

--DS

Last edited by donstrack; 12-22-2012 at 08:07 AM.


12-22-2012, 08:14 AM #11

donstrack

Here is what MP3Diag shows.

As you can see, both the "gain" and "peak" are in there as non-standard TXXX tags.


12-22-2012, 11:15 AM #12

Spoon

Install the utility codec 'id tag update' then convert all the files to this, the replaygain tags would be saved to their correct location.

Spoon
www.dbpoweramp.com


12-22-2012, 01:17 PM #13

donstrack

Originally Posted by Spoon

>> Install the utility codec 'id tag update' then convert all the files to this, the replaygain tags would be saved to their correct location. <<

How do I implement that utility? I don't see a choice on the Convert screen.


12-22-2012, 02:21 PM #14

Spoon

Install from here:

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/codec-central-utility.htm

after install it appears on the convert menu.

Spoon
www.dbpoweramp.com


12-22-2012, 09:23 PM #15

donstrack

Thank you. I had already downloaded the 'idtag update utility' when I registered dBpoweramp 18 months ago, but never did install it.

As for my original question about clearing the rogue "replaygain-track-gain" tag apparently added by Mediamonkey as part of its volume leveling. This rogue tag is not seen by MP3Tag; only by dBpoweramp, and cannot be removed.

My solution is to roundtrip all the files in a single folder from MP3 to FLAC, then back to MP3, using dBpoweramp. The conversion takes very little time and preserves all the tags (at least the ones I use, anyway), including the embedded cover art, and the Mediamonkey-added tag is gone. If I decide to use ReplayGain, using the ReplayGain feature in dBpoweramp adds the proper tag that is seen by MP3Tag. The tag inserted by foobar2000's RepalyGain feature is also in its proper place.

--DS


12-23-2012, 04:24 AM #16

dbfan

Update is should do the same thing without reconverting to mp3


12-23-2012, 07:56 AM #17

donstrack

Nope. It's still in there. The rogue "replaygain_track_gain" tag was shown in the dropdown box for single tag removal, but the tag was *not* deleted. The rogue tag is apparently not a standard tag, or a TXXX tag.

I tried all 17 files in a single album folder as a group, and a couple single files in the same folder. All 17 files have the same tag, but with different values.

Is that drop-down list built from the tags in the files selected (17 in this case), or is it presented as a list of standard tags?

I have searched the forum for some help with ID Tag Update settings, but I haven't seen anything. The Help ? does not do anything.

I want to remove these rogue tags because their values are set in about 10 per cent of the 11,000 files, and are all across the board. In these 17 files the dB value varies from +3.3 to -8.4. I've seen values as high as +/-14.7dB in some of the other files. Also, it's that I simply want to get rid of this Mediamonkey crap.

--DS

Last edited by donstrack; 12-23-2012 at 08:01 AM.


12-23-2012, 09:31 AM #18

Spoon

It would not delete, simply write to the correct ReplayGain tag, which then could be deleted.

Spoon
www.dbpoweramp.com


12-23-2012, 09:50 AM #19

donstrack

Originally Posted by Spoon

>> It would not delete, simply write to the correct ReplayGain tag, which then could be deleted. <<

Just tried another album/folder, this one also has 17 files. Used the ID Tag Update utility -> Deletion tab, with Single Tag=replaygain_track-gain (from the drop-down list). The tag was not removed (deleted). I tired removing the tag (again) in the ID Tag Edit screen. After refreshing the Explorer view, the tag is still shown.

After opening the entire folder in MP3Tag, and after using the ID Tag Update utility, the tag does not show in the TrackGain column that reads the %REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN% tag. (I should add that using the RepalyGain plugins for both dBpoweramp and foobar2000 puts the tag in it's proper place, which is visible in MP3Tag.)

Regardless of where the data is coming from, it goes away after converting from MP3 to FLAC, then back to MP3.

--DS


12-23-2012, 10:20 AM #20

garym

Mp3 to FLAC to mp3 is still a lossy to lossy conversion and should be avoided. The resulting mp3 is not the same as original mp3. Probably not audible in most cases so it is not a terrible thing to do, but not an optimum solution.


12-23-2012, 03:06 PM #21

donstrack

Originally Posted by garym

>> Mp3 to FLAC to mp3 is still a lossy to lossy conversion and should be avoided. The resulting mp3 is not the same as original mp3. Probably not audible in most cases so it is not a terrible thing to do, but not an optimum solution. <<

I'm certainly open to other suggestions. I'm simply looking for something that works. If it wasn't for the fact that I can hear the reduction of volume from the ReplayGain, I'd simply leave the stupid tag alone. But I can hear that it's still there.

By the way, I'm converting using dBpoweraamp to full uncompressed FLAC, which is just a bit larger than a comparable WAV, also converted by dBpoweramp at the same time. But, I have noticed that the resulting replacement MP3 is about half the size as the original MP3.

I would leave it as a FLAC, but I like to be able to double-click a file in Explorer and listen to just that file. Windows Media Player in Now Playing mode does it just fine for an MP3 (that's all I use WMP for), but I can't find a Flac player for Windows 7 that is small, quick loading, and shows album art. I grabbed the Xiph and mfFLAC codecs for Windows Media Player, but they don't show the album art. I guess FLAC isn't as universal as many on the internet would have us believe. I would think that a simple, stand-alone FLAC player that shows tag information and album art for Windows (and all other platforms) would be a priority for the Xiph Foundation. It kind of makes it obvious just how small this digital audiophile community really is.

I thought of keeping my source files as uncompressed and tagged FLAC files, instead of PCM/WAV, but without album art, I may as well keep them in a Windows-native format. My folder and file naming protocol reflects the tag data, with an occasional text file in each folder for anything else that I need to keep, like a discography or lyrics. The album art is kept as uncompressed TIF files, then reduced to 500x500 JPGs for embedding in MP3s.

--DS


12-23-2012, 04:15 PM #22

garym

I use foobar2000 as a player on my win7 machines. Does everything you want (shows metadata, artwork, etc.). Plays almost any kind of file including flac, and when I click on any audio file in windows explorer, it automatically opens in foobar2000. I use the basic program plus the facets component which gives me a bit more control over how things are displayed in foobar2000.


12-23-2012, 04:16 PM #23

garym

Originally Posted by garym

>> I use foobar2000 as a player on my win7 machines. Does everything you want (shows metadata, artwork, etc.). Plays almost any kind of file including flac, and when I click on any audio file in windows explorer, it automatically opens in foobar2000. I use the basic program plus the facets component which gives me a bit more control over how things are displayed in foobar2000. <<

Edit: if you haven't discovered foobar2000 and hydrogenaudio.org, you are missing valuable resources for our small digital audio community. ;-)

My tools are dbpa for ripping and tagging, mp3tag for additional tagging, and foobar2000 for pc file playing and some other tools. I keep everything in flac and a mirror library of mp3 files for use on iThings.

Last edited by garym; 12-23-2012 at 04:20 PM.


12-23-2012, 09:14 PM #24

donstrack

Thanks. I'll give facets a try.

I don't like how if I open a file in foobar2000, the next time I open it, the program is stuck on that file, and does not show me my entire library.


12-23-2012, 09:33 PM #25

garym

Originally Posted by donstrack

>> Thanks. I'll give facets a try. <<

>> I don't like how if I open a file in foobar2000, the next time I open it, the program is stuck on that file, and does not show me my entire library. <<

There are settings so that it won't do this. I have foo bar set to open all clicked files to a temporary playlist. And with my facets setup I can easily see my regular entire library as well. About 70k files and easy to browse and search. I have facets setup to look a bit like iTunes browse screen with filetype, genre, artist, album, and date added columns.


12-23-2012, 11:05 PM #26

donstrack

Originally Posted by donstrack

>> By the way, I'm converting using dBpoweraamp to full uncompressed FLAC, which is just a bit larger than a comparable WAV, also converted by dBpoweramp at the same time. But, I have noticed that the resulting replacement MP3 is about half the size as the original MP3. <<

Well, that's a big oops. Obviously, to get a comparable file size, and quality in the MP3 file, all I need to do is set the MP3 Lame setting to maximum.

As for where this rogue tag comes from, I'm starting to see a pattern. I assumed it came from Mediamonkey, but I may be wrong. The common factor is that (I think) the files were purchased as MP3s from Amazon, and it may be a "feature" of their MP3 encoding. Over the next couple days, I'll run a test of buying a song from both iTunes and from Amazon, to see what their tags look like. But first, I want to finish this effort of removing this rogue tag, and do some other cleanup, like converting the last few remaining AAC files to MP3. In my Music/Library folder, and all the subfolders, 1-9 and A-Z, I'm at 'P' now, so a couple more hours should do it.

Thanks for all your help. I've learned a lot. Also, I've decided that I really like foobar2000 with the Columns UI component, with just the NGPlaylist. Simple and clean, with nice-sized album art. The Ctrl-F search works great to find any particular song; no need to any of the filter add-ons like Facet.

--DS


12-23-2012, 11:16 PM #27

garym

I have a few amazon mp3 purchases and don't see these rogue tags.


12-24-2012, 08:57 AM #28

donstrack

Going back through my purchases, and after buying an album this morning, all of the MP3s I have purchased from Amazon at least since April have the rogue tag. Maybe it's the vendor doing it and Amazon themselves doesn't know, but they all have the same "replaygain_track-gain" tag that is hidden to all, except to dBpoweramp. So, although I still dislike Mediamonkey for their bloated database, and their iTunes wannabe attitude, the rogue ReplayGain tag is not their doing.

But no worries, it only take 30 seconds to convert to uncompressed FLAC, and another 30 seconds to convert back to highest quality MP3, and all of the normal ID3 tags are preserved. And if it turns out that I need some ReplayGain applied to any of the songs, I'll simply use either dBpoweramp, or foorbar2000 to do so.

--DS

###